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let us have a discussion: 宫颈液基 vs 传统刮片

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楼主 发表于 2009-03-07 23:03|举报|关注(0)
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Recently I noticed some topics related liquid based cytology (LBC) and conventional Pap smears (CP) in this website. We know that the price of LBC is higher than CP.

Hope we can discuss the disadvantage and advantage of both methods.

What methods are used in your hospitals?

What method you think should be used in China now or future?

Also I will find some data to let you know the main methods used in other main countries. As of May 1, 2008, the United Nations has 192 members. In China we mention 国外, which include more than 190 contries.

Thanks

cz

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41 楼    发表于2009-03-07 23:56:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-14 13:04:00 编辑

试译一楼的内容,译得不当之处,请大家指正:

   最近我注意到本站一些主题关于液基细胞学与传统巴氏涂片,大家知道液基的价格高于传统巴氏。我们希望能讨论一下两种方法的优缺点。

   请问,你的科室使用哪种方法?你认为现在或将来哪种方法更适用于中国?

   我也愿意找到一些数据说明在其他的一些国家和地区使用的主流方法。

   截至2008年3月1日,联合国有192个成员国,而在中国我们所谓的国外,包括了190多个国家。(谢谢赵老师和夫人对197译文的帮助!)

  谢谢!

 

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42 楼    发表于2009-03-08 23:50:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-08 23:56:00 编辑  Hope more people share your experience or oppinions. The concept or priniciple is more important than one case learning for pathologists. We need to know sth new even though we might not do them now
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43 楼    发表于2009-03-09 19:44:00举报|引用
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以下是引用cqzhao在2009-3-8 23:40:00的发言:

 To 法师 :

休息的时候没事做,也来信口开河说几句,就当作闲聊。

you have excellent  points. Your name also means that you are a powerful person. If you are more serious, you will have more excellent points. Kiding.

谢谢您的鼓励,不过我是一个来自基层的,来这里主要是想学习,本不敢说什么,但见到这么多老师都很真诚,就非常感激,再就是在网上大家都不认识我,说错了不用负责.
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44 楼    发表于2009-03-09 20:17:00举报|引用
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 Here every one has equal right, free discussion. We do not need to care right or wrong oppinion. We do not need to care professors, experts, students, persons in China or abroad.
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45 楼    发表于2009-03-19 03:39:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-19 11:04:00 编辑   Cytopathology. 2009 Jan 21. [Epub ahead of print]

Endometrial carcinoma detected with SurePath liquid-based cervical cytology: comparison with conventional cytology.

Department of Cellular Pathology, Royal Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK.

C. Patel, A. Ullal, M. Roberts, J. Brady, P. Birch, J. N. Bulmer and V. Wadehra Endometrial carcinoma detected with SurePath liquid-based cervical cytology: comparison with conventional cytologyIntroduction: Conventional Pap smears (CPS) have little impact on the detection of endometrial carcinoma. Although liquid-based cytology (LBC) is replacing CPS in the UK, experience with identification of endometrial cancers with this technique is limited. Aim: To compare the accuracy of the SurePath LBC with that of CPS for detection of endometrial cancers. Methods: Our study group comprised SurePath LBC samples reported as atypical endometrial cells and endometrial adenocarcinoma (classified respectively as borderline, code 8 and ?glandular neoplasia, code 6 for the NHS Cervical Screening Programme statistics) in 2004-2005. CPS reported as atypical endometrial cells or adenocarcinoma in 1993-1998 comprised the control group. Histological follow-up was obtained. Results: Endometrial abnormalities were reported in 95 (0.073%) of 130 352 LBC samples, comprising 75 (0.058%) atypical endometrial cells and 20 (0.015%) endometrial adenocarcinoma reports. Of 409 495 CPS, 117 (0.029%) were diagnosed as endometrial abnormalities, comprising 59 (0.014%) atypical endometrial cells and 58 (0.014%) endometrial adenocarcinoma reports. Thus, the endometrial adenocarcinoma reporting rate was similar in both groups, but that for atypical endometrial cells was higher with LBC (P < 0.001). The positive predictive value for endometrial cancer of endometrial adenocarcinoma and atypical endometrial cell reports in the LBC group was 73.3 and 18.8%, respectively, compared with 42.3 and 6.7% in the CPS group. The endometrial adenocarcinoma patients in CPS group were older (mean age 62.5 years versus 56.5 years) and most (22/25) were symptomatic, whereas most (13/17) patients in the LBC group were asymptomatic at the time of sampling (P < 0.001). Conclusion: SurePath LBC is at least as accurate a method for detecting endometrial cancer as CPS. SurePath LBC demonstrates enhanced identification of endometrial pathology in asymptomatic women in the cervical screening programme.

只翻译结论部分:

SurePath 液基制片至少是一种同传统涂片一样准确的检测子宫内膜癌的方法。SurePath 液基制片表明在宫颈筛查项目中,加强无症状妇女的子宫内膜病理的鉴定诊断。

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46 楼    发表于2009-03-19 03:41:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-19 15:44:00 编辑  Acta Cytol. 2008 Jul-Aug;52(4):439-44.

Performance of 3 methods for quality control for gynecologic cytology diagnoses.

Pathology Division, Adolfo Lutz Institute, Department of Pathology, Federal University of São Paulo, Sã Paulo, Brazil.

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate performance and viability of internal quality control (QC) strategies in a public health laboratory of the state of São Paulo. STUDY DESIGN: A retrospective study was performed with 3 QC strategies to improve internal cytologic diagnoses: morphologic guided-list criteria (MGLC), 100% rapid-rescreening (100% RR) of negative slides ("turret" method) and 10% rescreening (10% R) of negative slides. Cases were examined at Adolfo Lutz Institute, São Paulo, Brazil, from 2002 to 2004. Histopathologic results, when available, were considered gold standard; cytologic consensus diagnosis was by 2 pathologists when histologic results were unavailable. RESULTS: MGLC selected 20.7% samples with cytologic atypias, 10% R selected 0.6% and RR selected 2.5%. Cytologic/histologic initial concordance was 57.4%, low-grade squamous intra-epithelial lesion false negative rate was 34.9% and high-grade squamous intraepithelial lesion false negative rate was 12.2%. After diagnosis, consensus concordance was 97.2%. CONCLUSION: The 100% RR and 10% R QC strategies detected more false negative cases in liquid-based cytology than in conventional Pap smears. The 100% RR strategy reduced the false negative results and allowed evaluation of individual staff performance. The 10% R strategy did not offer significant results. We concluded that association of MGLC and 100% RR strategies might improve cytologic diagnostic quality.

结论:液基细胞学同传统涂片比,(阴性涂片)100%快速复阅和10%复阅的质控策略检测出更高的假阴性病例。100%快速复阅策略降低了假阴性结果和评估个别工作人员的业绩。10%复阅(阴性涂片)策略没有提供有意义的结果。我们可以得出结合大纲性(导向性)的形态学标准(morphologic guided-list criteria)和100%快速复阅(阴性涂片)的策略会提高细胞学诊断的质量。

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47 楼    发表于2009-03-19 03:43:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-21 19:22:00 编辑   Acta Cytol. 2008 Mar-Apr;52(2):159-68.

Follow-up study of atypical glandular cells in gynecologic cytology using conventional Pap smears and liquid-based preparations: impact of the Bethesda System 2001.

Department of Pathology, The University of Hong Kong and Hong Kong Sanatorium and Hospital, Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, China.

OBJECTIVE: This study evaluated the impact of the Bethesda System (TBS) 2001 in reporting of atypical glandular cells (AGC) when using conventional Pap smears (CS) and liquid-based cytology preparations (LBC). STUDY DESIGN: Follow-up information for all atypical glandular cells of undetermined significance (AGUS)/ AGC cases encountered in Queen Mary Hospital from July 2000 to June 2004 was analyzed. The difference in percentages associated with certain end points when using different reporting systems and preparation methods were compared. The age trends and time interval between cytologic diagnosis and detection of positive end points were studied. RESULTS: More than half of these cases turned out to be "negative." The majority with "negative" end points belonged to the "not otherwise specified" (NOS) groups (including atypical endometrial cells) in TBS 2001. The connotation of "favor neoplastic" carried a high positive predictive value for significant lesions. Most of the significant outcomes were discovered within the subsequent 6 months. A decreased reporting of "AGC, NOS" and an increased reporting of "atypical endocervical cells, NOS" were noted when using LBC. CONCLUSION: Subcategorization of AGC in TBS 2001 according to cellular origin and risk of malignancy, which is further enhanced by application of LBC, is useful.

结论:在2001年TBS系统中AGC这个次级分类中,根据细胞来源和恶性肿瘤的风险;是进一步加强了液基细胞应用价值和意义。

 

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48 楼    发表于2009-03-19 03:44:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-21 19:25:00 编辑  Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2008 Jan-Mar;9(1):92-6.

Interobserver reproducibility with LiquiPrep liquid-based cervical cytology screening in a developing country.

Department of Pathology, Faculty of Medicine, Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand.

OBJECTIVE: A modified liquid-based techniques known as the "LiquiPrep (LP) system" requires neither expensive equipment nor complicated specimen preparation. The aim of this study was to assess the applicability of the LP for use in a developing country. METHODS: Cervical cytology specimens were collected from 777 women, using the Cervex-Brush. The brush was first smeared on a glass side for conventional Papanicolaou (CP) stain, and then immersed in preservation fluid for LP preparation. Cytologic interpretations were classified into four categories: 1) no atypical cells, 2) atypical squamous epithelial cells (ASC), 3) definite epithelial cell abnormality, and 4) unsatisfactory specimen. Interobserver variability was tested using weighted kappa statistics. RESULTS: An LP specimen cost $9 per case compared to $3 per case for a conventional Pap smear. The time to learn the technique was only a few days. Forty six (5.92%) specimens by LP were unsatisfactory. The overall agreement between cytopathologists was 96.7% (weight kappa=0.62), with 95.6% (weight kappa=0.44) for the cases enrolled earlier, increasing to 97.9% (weight kappa=0.78) for the cases enrolled later. CONCLUSIONS: In summary, after a short learning curve, interobserver reproducibility of LP smear was near perfect. This feature of the LP, together with the relatively low cost and simple protocol, makes it quite suitable for cervical cytology screening in developing countries. Moreover, with this technique, some of each sample can be reserved for additional studies such as HPV detection and subtyping.

 

   结论:总之,经过短暂的回顾性研究, 在阅片的重复性中是近乎完美。液基细胞学涂片的这种特点,加上相对较低的成本和简单的步骤(规则protocol),这使得非常适合在发展中国家进行宫颈细胞学筛查。此外,这一技术,其中一些样品可以保留进行更多的研究:例如人乳头状瘤病毒检测和分型。
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49 楼    发表于2009-03-12 01:24:00举报|引用
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 Do most people show no oppinion?
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50 楼    发表于2009-03-12 02:05:00举报|引用
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 Dr. Zhao brought an excellent question for discussion. When I was doing my cytopathology fellowship, we had 50% smears and 50% ThinPrep. Now, in our practice, it is 99% ThinPrep. The major advantage of ThinPrep in term of clinical management is that you can do reflex HPV DNA test on patients with a ASCUS pap. You are not going to be able to do that on the conventional smear unless you co-collect some and put into liquid during the Pap. The reflex HPV DNA test for ASCUS is recommended by the American Society of Colposcopy and Cervical Pathology. Last year, I visited University of Calgary in Canada, the Canadian system is different from the US and they don't have the reflex HPV test for ASCUS. However, their Paps are 90% ThinPrep anyway.

 I have to admit that on morphology for glandular lesions on Pap, I would prefer conventional than ThinPrep, provided the clinicians know how to do the smear (not the air-dryed poor quality smears).

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51 楼    发表于2009-03-12 11:15:00举报|引用
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 Thank Dr. Chen's input. What do you think, our Chinese pathologists in China? I know we may have not condition to do LBC, even conventional Pap for many people in countryside. I hope we as pathologists will know some situation outside China and know the good and bad parts of two pap test methods.
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52 楼    发表于2009-03-13 11:05:00举报|引用
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 In big cities in Canada, most Gyn slides are LBC, very few conventional smear but in the small cities, still conventional smear because of small volume of specimen. In the hospital I worked, all Gyn slides are LBC, still a few consult cases were conventional smear. HPV will be done based on clinical request, most cases were ASC and LSIL.
LBC Gyn slides are easy to read but conventional Pap  shouldn't be misunderstand in China. Using LBC or conventional smear is depending on financial situation and volume of cytology specimen.


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53 楼    发表于2009-03-14 12:13:00举报|引用
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 Thanks, Dr. Hay
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54 楼    发表于2009-03-14 07:49:00举报|引用
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 好热闹啊!我恨死传统图片了,多叫很多ASCUS仅仅因为细胞保存质量不好,又不能做high risk HPV test. 说实话,我知道国内细胞病理的实际情况,我愿意到需要的医院volunteer短暂时间和你们交流。去年到一家医院10天年轻医生基本学会了正常宫颈管上皮细胞和子宫内膜细胞。我很幸运能接受1年细胞病理专科训练和住院医生训练。我现在每天看几十到100张异常pap smears, 什么罕见病都成常规了,很愿意和大家分享。

我工作单位〉98%是液基,很少传统涂片。

I don't comment much on some cases posted here because i know for sure that the selection of fields for picture and posting the photos tristed the truth on slides some times, i don't want to misquide you.  In my work, i am quite sure what i call.

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55 楼    发表于2009-03-14 08:41:00举报|引用
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     液基细胞学和传统涂片比起来优点很明显,病理医生看得更清楚了,阳性率提高了,在我们这里也是这样,我们使用的是Thinprep2000制片系统,阳性率统计大概是7%左右,很多都有活检组织学的追随结果。

    我们也做传统涂片,因为不是所有的病人都能接受液基细胞学的价格,我们的传统涂片制片质量一般,如果按满意度来评判,大概约40%左右为不合格标本,我们的传统涂片阳性率约1.6%,不到2%。

    根据我的阅片经验,我觉得如果传统涂片做得好——取材合适、固定及时、染色优良的话,它的诊断提示作用优于液基细胞学制片,因为传统涂片往往有大量的异常细胞存在。而液基细胞学片子如果经验不足,比较容易漏诊,因为细胞更小,异常细胞分散。

    目前液基细胞学在中国大行其道,热闹非凡,这是各方利益驱逐使然。我觉得它带来的非常明显的好的作用就是大家开始注意细胞学诊断的学习和水平的提高了,而在这之前,很多阅片医生是跟着感觉走来发报告的。临床医生也不把这样的诊断结果放在眼里,我亲耳听过一个省级医院的妇科主任讲座时说过:“我们这里的传统涂片几乎没有阳性结果”。

    在中国,我觉得这两种方法需要并存,但是医生的阅片培训和准入亟待推行,这样才能真正发挥其作用。

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56 楼    发表于2009-03-14 11:21:00举报|引用
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本帖最后由 于 2009-03-19 18:37:00 编辑 From 城北: 液基细胞学和传统涂片比起来优点很明显,病理医生看得更清楚了,阳性率提高了,在我们这里也是这样,我们使用的是Thinprep2000制片系统,阳性率统计大概是7%左右,很多都有活检组织学的追随结果。

    我们也做传统涂片,因为不是所有的病人都能接受液基细胞学的价格,我们的传统涂片制片质量一般,如果按满意度来评判,大概约40%左右为不合格标本,我们的传统涂片阳性率约1.6%,不到2%。

 

 

Clearly we can see the advantage of LBC than 传统涂片 based on the positive rate from your hospital. Three times more are huge different. In other words you may miss a lot of positive patients based the results of 传统涂片.

What do you mean positive rate? Is it atypical Pap test rate including all ascus, asc-h, sil ....?

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57 楼    发表于2009-03-14 11:31:00举报|引用
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以下是引用mingfuyu在2009-3-14 7:49:00的发言:

 好热闹啊!我恨死传统图片了,多叫很多ASCUS仅仅因为细胞保存质量不好,又不能做high risk HPV test. 说实话,我知道国内细胞病理的实际情况,我愿意到需要的医院volunteer短暂时间和你们交流。去年到一家医院10天年轻医生基本学会了正常宫颈管上皮细胞和子宫内膜细胞。我很幸运能接受1年细胞病理专科训练和住院医生训练。我现在每天看几十到100张异常pap smears, 什么罕见病都成常规了,很愿意和大家分享。

我工作单位〉98%是液基,很少传统涂片。

I don't comment much on some cases posted here because i know for sure that the selection of fields for picture and posting the photos tristed the truth on slides some times, i don't want to misquide you.  In my work, i am quite sure what i call.

Thank Dr. Yu's comment. Now i do not like to read 传统涂片 also. If I am in Pap service week i need to read 50 anormal Paps including reactive et al every day. There are two pathologists or cytopathologists read Pap every day. We may incease to 60 Paps. Occasioanlly I may see one 传统涂片 with inflammatory background. Cytotechnicians always call ascus. I agree with ascus most of the time because i do not have choice. If I really feel there are some atypical cells, I will suggest to take another sample to have high risk HPV test.
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58 楼    发表于2009-03-14 11:34:00举报|引用
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 Good news: see above Dr. Yu's message: 我愿意到需要的医院volunteer短暂时间和你们交流。Volunteer=志愿者。It is a good opportunity. You can contact with Dr. Yu if you need.
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59 楼    发表于2009-03-14 11:37:00举报|引用
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 I know the condition in some areas of China may be unable to perform LBC or some women may be unable to pay the test. Again just hope our pathologists know the truth about the Pap tests.
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60 楼    发表于2009-03-14 12:35:00举报|引用
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 哇塞!喻老师来我们医院吧!热烈欢迎您啊!期待啦,什么时候回国,请一定告诉我啊。

我来召集北京细胞学届的朋友都来我们医院听课,请您给我们系统讲讲啊!真是太美的消息了啊!

我兴奋的要睡不着了啊,现在就开始期待啊拥抱喻老师爱您

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